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 Post subject: Owners of 2002 GK V6 ! Please come read here !
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:12 pm 
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Hi !

You have certainly figured out that your 2002 Hyundai coupe V6 Gen3 has a problem : when connecting a diagnostic tool on your OBDII port, it can't have access to the ECU. It brings numerous troubles, one of them being that CEL codes can't be read. So you just have to guess what the problem is with your car, and it's not always obvious...

I have personnaly done a lot of research about this. Here are the results :

- Whatever the diagnostic tool and the software you use, it's always the same. Even with a Hyundai scan tool. You can't have access to the ECU datas...
- Hyundai has published a note a few years ago about the OBDII port on 2002 gen3 : we have to wire the missing pin 5 in the OBDII port to the ground cable of the pin 4 wire, and it would work. Well, in fact, no, it still doesn't work. It will now let you have access to airbags datas, but you'll still be unable to access to the ECU. And Hyundai doesn't know that.
- The cause of this ? We don't know exactly. The 2002 is quite different from the later Gen3 : the ECU is 2 bits (it's 4 bits on later Gen3), the lambda sensors are wideband instead of narrowband, the OBDII port is not cabled as it should...
- The problem seems to be worldwide and touching all 2002 Gen3 V6. I know 14 owners of these cars in France, all have the problem. I've met on forums a german and a canadian who had the problem too.

The consequences :
- You can't read CEL codes ;
- You can't read long term fuel trims, so if you're a hardcore user wanting to tune the air/fuel ratio perfectly with a piggyback, it's a problem ;
- When you're trying to pass emissions tests, the default will be noted on the certificate (in France that's the case) ;
- you can't use NGM handheld ECU reflash tool
- When you have a problem with the car and go the hyundai dealer, you'll sometimes meet an asshole who will not bother to listen to you, and will keep on telling the ECU is f***ed up and is causing the trouble, and must be changed (1500€...). Actually a friend of mine has this problem : his 2002 V6 gen3 won't start, i think it's just the immobilizer ; but the mecanic keep on telling the ECU must be changed because he can't have access to it...

So here in France we have decided to do something at last, and we have agreed that each hyundai coupe owner having this problem (we're 14 at the moment) will send a mail to Hyundai France to complain about this, explain the problem, and ask Hyundai to inform all his dealers and mecanics about it. If you could do the same with Hyundai England, that would be interessant, too. We're contacting all the european hyundai coupe forums about this.

Sorry for the bad english :o


Last edited by Elricdelyon on Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Owners of 2002 GK V6 ! Please come read here !
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:43 pm 
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Can I just say, why the sorry for the bad English? It was pretty much spot on and read fluently, no need for the apology in my opinion bud.


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 Post subject: Re: Owners of 2002 GK V6 ! Please come read here !
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:03 pm 
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Ask Sharky in the traders section - the reader is different to the US ODBII port readers, i cant remember which one it is now but i think you can easily get the right cel reader


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 Post subject: Re: Owners of 2002 GK V6 ! Please come read here !
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:20 pm 
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androo007 wrote:
Ask Sharky in the traders section - the reader is different to the US ODBII port readers, i cant remember which one it is now but i think you can easily get the right cel reader


Please, that's not the point, even hyundai dealers can't have access with their own official hyundai reader.


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 Post subject: Re: Owners of 2002 GK V6 ! Please come read here !
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:54 pm 
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androo007 wrote:
Ask Sharky in the traders section - the reader is different to the US ODBII port readers, i cant remember which one it is now but i think you can easily get the right cel reader

EOBDII, Unless I'm mistaken. Sharky will confirm/correct that though. Remember him mentioning it when I was there before Crimbo having a cambelt+service.


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 Post subject: Re: Owners of 2002 GK V6 ! Please come read here !
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:10 pm 
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surely thats not a mistake its just common sense,hyundai are not gonna want people messing about with ecu settings-especially some of the dealers iv seen,and as it has as such a fixed idea of what its supposed to do why would anyone WANT to change it-(hyundai's view).or am i missing summat here?


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 Post subject: Re: Owners of 2002 GK V6 ! Please come read here !
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:25 pm 
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Interestingly enough Sharky did have problems reading my engine section with the Hyscan Pro.. I have a 2002 V6..

He suggested (without investigating it because he was reading it purely to give the car a quick check over, not to fix something) it could be a problem with the way the aftermarket alarm was wired in, (iirc. corrupting the cambus signal?) I doubt it's the first 2002 V6 he's scanned though?


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 Post subject: Re: Owners of 2002 GK V6 ! Please come read here !
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:39 pm 
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he couldnt do mackers either but that has some kind of chip

i doubt a huge corporation like hyundai would allow summat like that to go uncured........unless they did it deliberately


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 Post subject: Re: Owners of 2002 GK V6 ! Please come read here !
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:58 pm 
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gotta rule mackers out as an anomoly because of the chip really..

maybe they thought most people wont notice, and fixed it for later gens without a recall.?


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 Post subject: Re: Owners of 2002 GK V6 ! Please come read here !
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:15 pm 
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thedupleman wrote:
surely thats not a mistake its just common sense,hyundai are not gonna want people messing about with ecu settings-especially some of the dealers iv seen,and as it has as such a fixed idea of what its supposed to do why would anyone WANT to change it-(hyundai's view).or am i missing summat here?


:confused
:bang

Yes, you're totally missing something...

I think there's a big confusion here. We don't want to mess something with our cars, to change the settings or whatever. Don't you know anything about the OBDII system ??? All cars since 2001 are supposed to be equipped with it. You simply plug a OBDII scanner (30$ on ebay) in it and you can read (NOT MODIFY, READ) some infos about the car, just as the dealer would do, it's a GREAT help to find by yourself the cause of troubles. And in all 2002 V6 this thing doesn't work at all ! EVEN FOR THE DEALER ! So are you understanding the problem, now ? If our 2002 V6 has a trouble and the "check engine" light gets on, the dealer will be unable to know what is the cause of this check engine light !!!!!! He'll have to use the old ways, checking this, checking that... And with all the electronic parts in our cars, you can be sure it could get months to find some causes. Frequently the dealer will simply say that the trouble is caused by the ECU which have a problem, just because he can't have access to it with the OBDII port ; that's the easy way for him. A new ECU is something like 1500€...

I hope it's clear now.

I'm disappointed that you guys are just doubting about this. I had hoped for some help, but i just get doubts, questions... But maybe 2002 V6 are rare here. Or maybe the 2002 owners were lucky and never had any check engine light on.

On Tuscani France forum, we're FIFTEEN owners of 2002 V6 Gen3. ALL have this problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Owners of 2002 GK V6 ! Please come read here !
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:25 pm 
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iv never had a problem then again i dont have a v6............we're not doubting what you say its just summat we've never encountered.on a forum of 4000 members.never heard anyone mention it so cant be summat we've a regular problem with here.........yet ours must be the same as yours


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 Post subject: Re: Owners of 2002 GK V6 ! Please come read here !
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:53 pm 
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I know pretty much all there is to know about OBD/EOBD. I have a Hi-Scan Pro dedicated Hyundai computer, I used to work for Hyundai (the manufacturer), I work on literally hundreds of Coupes of all generations (including lots of V6's), I personally own a 2003 V6. Hope that's established my credentials for you.

There is no difference in ECM on V6 Coupes from '02 - '07 MY. If you can provide the "note" that Hyundai "published a few years ago" I'd be very interested to see it. I was involved in the GK project from its inception and wrote technical documentation on the vehicle and have no recollection of any such "note". To the best of my knowlege wideband O2 sensors are not fitted to Euro Spec vehicles at all. As the manufacturer of the vehicle there isn't anything that Hyundai doesn't know about it. If you meet an a**hole at a dealership, it's probably because he is one rather than any other reason.

I have come across one or two that I couldn't communicate with, but the causes of this were traced to other things.


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 Post subject: Re: Owners of 2002 GK V6 ! Please come read here !
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:47 pm 
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sharky wrote:
I know pretty much all there is to know about OBD/EOBD. I have a Hi-Scan Pro dedicated Hyundai computer, I used to work for Hyundai (the manufacturer), I work on literally hundreds of Coupes of all generations (including lots of V6's), I personally own a 2003 V6. Hope that's established my credentials for you.

There is no difference in ECM on V6 Coupes from '02 - '07 MY. If you can provide the "note" that Hyundai "published a few years ago" I'd be very interested to see it. I was involved in the GK project from its inception and wrote technical documentation on the vehicle and have no recollection of any such "note". To the best of my knowlege wideband O2 sensors are not fitted to Euro Spec vehicles at all. As the manufacturer of the vehicle there isn't anything that Hyundai doesn't know about it. If you meet an a**hole at a dealership, it's probably because he is one rather than any other reason.

I have come across one or two that I couldn't communicate with, but the causes of this were traced to other things.


So please explain me why no one (multiple dealers with official scantool - yes, the Hi-Scan Pro) / emission test operators / users with various scan tools hardware & software, including those working perfectly on later tiburons) can't have access to the ECU data on a 2002 V6 ? Not on one car, but on all fifteen of our forums ? And some other guys from other countries too ? You can have a look here : one guy from Austria, another from Toronto, another from Germany... http://www.newtiburon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150868&highlight=OBD&page=2.

At meetings, we've tried it a lot of times. Some guy with his scantool and laptop comes in, and each time it works fine with 2003+ coupes and not with 2002 V6 coupes.

Explain me too why the pin 5 (signal ground) is missing in the DLC port on 2002 models, and it needs to be wired with another ground (pin 4, chassis ground for example) so the OBD interface can be powered up ? (Powered up, but still no access to ECU). You even have a thread about this in this forum !

Yes, there was a note and even a recall from hyundai about this OBD port. Have a look at this pdf, middle of last page : http://www.vcertt.org/news/8-04.pdf

As to saying ECM are the same from 02 to 2007... No way. Just ask NGM if a 2007 can be reflashed just like a 2003... And there's the immobilizer problem too. Some have it, some others not.

For the wideband lambda sensors, i've read it here and there, nothing else, so that's a slim evidence. But curiously we never have CEL codes when installing headers on 2002 V6 coupes, even a long time after an ECU reset, when you'll have one each time on later ones....

You're certainly very knowledgeable. But i've done my homeworks too. And the evidences are here.


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 Post subject: Re: Owners of 2002 GK V6 ! Please come read here !
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:39 pm 
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It seems your homework is incomplete. I've read the TSB and the recall notice you mentioned:
1. It relevant to 2003 MY cars, not 2002 MY cars.
2. It only affects GST (Generic Scan Tool) and not Hi-Scan as GST doesn't support that particular ground circuit in the DLC, whereas the Hyundai tool does.
3. It is only applicable to countries that subscribe to CARB and OBD II, where in europe we have Euro and EOBD.
4. The recall part is only applicable to 5 states in the US.

The common denominator with a lot of the cars mentioned is BCM/immobiliser equipped. The immobiliser system on the V6 is different to the 1.6 and 2.0 and the BCM is notorious for causing problems. In fact most of the comms faults I've had with GKV6 have been BCM related. In countries that do not carry immobiliser function in the BCM, communication is not an issue.

As for flashing ECMs, I have several ECM software upgrades that I can download into customers cars to cure different driveability issues. I have never encountered any problems in doing that and could care less about performance flashing - if you want to try to dick about with the manufacturer data in the ECM that's your business.

As for O2 sensors - the late V6's had ZrO2 sensors instead of TiO2 sensors. Both types are narrowband sensors though.


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 Post subject: Re: Owners of 2002 GK V6 ! Please come read here !
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:31 pm 
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Of course this recall has been limited to cars located in states where OBDII was needed for CARB/emissions. But other cars elsewhere had this problem too.

sharky wrote:
The common denominator with a lot of the cars mentioned is BCM/immobiliser equipped. The immobiliser system on the V6 is different to the 1.6 and 2.0 and the BCM is notorious for causing problems. In fact most of the comms faults I've had with GKV6 have been BCM related. In countries that do not carry immobiliser function in the BCM, communication is not an issue.


Pheww... We're getting somewhere... :bow

Good ! A knowledgeable guy who has some ideas about the cause of the problem, and who admits it's a problem. That's exactly the point !

- We want hyundai to know about this issue, because no dealers know about this and so are giving us the same answer you were giving me two posts ago.
Main effect : to stop the dealers saying us that our ECU is dead/must be changed each time they can't find the cause of a CEL.

- We want Hyundai to solve this problem. Our car is supposed to have a diagnostic system, and actually it's not working !

But if you have an idea to solve this problem without going to war with hyundai, you're welcome !

Personnaly i'm so fed up with this ECU problem (including the impossibility to reflash it) that i've ordered a Hydra Nemesis standalone - and i just hope the immobilizer will not be a problem with it too...


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 Post subject: Re: Owners of 2002 GK V6 ! Please come read here !
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:20 pm 
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Does this mean an SMT6 won't work/can't be tuned on a 2002 V6? If not I will be very upset! Lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Owners of 2002 GK V6 ! Please come read here !
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:15 am 
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trismotteram wrote:
Does this mean an SMT6 won't work/can't be tuned on a 2002 V6? If not I will be very upset! Lol.


No. Piggybacks are working perfectly. i'm actually using a MAFterburner.

It's the reading of ECU datas witht the OBD port which doesn't work. So you can't see the long term fuel trims. You can still have a correct tune though, but that would be way better if you could see those LTFT to adjust the tune.

Jut keep in mind that you may have a very good tune right now, but a few days of driving later the LTFT could have messed it a little, so you'll have to check your A/F ratio frequently with the wideband and adjust your tune.


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